There it is. The vote's been taken...and we just broke a ton of people's hearts for another four years. I might actually blog about this sometime...but right now, I'm way too depressed...God, forgive us all.
For affirming the word of God, the teachings of Scripture, the history of Christianity???
I just don't get it...up until now, many of you were writing that this G.C. has been "Spirit-led". Now, because the vote doesn't go your way, people suddenly aren't being led by the Spirit?!?
Perhaps your anger and sorrow should be turned into prayer for truth and sincere reflection. This "debate" has been taking place at G.C.'s for 40 years and the vote consistently affirms the teachings of Scripture.
What will it take for you to truly listen to what God is saying???
Dear Anonymous: Who are you? Voices that hold the traditional Christian view on homosexuality are very welcome (e.g., see the comments a couple of days ago; and I doubt my stance is at all identical to Stephen and Gregg, I know it's not identical to Becca's). But please don't drop in to a list of comments by some clearly hurting people without at least identifying yourself.
Becca, Stephen, Gregg... I'm sorry you're hurting. The vote is not surprising from this end. I didn't listen to any of the debate, so perhaps that's what has broken your heart.
Some of the 2008 vs 2004 wording is text cleanup, and I think it's helpful. But I also see some hardening of the lines: 1) The removal of anything regarding further study of sexuality. 2) The removal of general guidelines for sexual behavior (replaced by "monogamous, heterosexual marriage")
There is also some political conservatism sneaking in ("protection" instead of "protective services", and in the paragraph on sex education), which generally runs counter to the spirit of the rest of the Discipline.
I'm sad that the new version didn't pass, but it seemed unlikely. General Conference is, as a whole, a conservative body. (All large randomly selected bodies are, as a whole, conservative. People resist change, probably for good reason; many changes are bad.)
If you're right, the Church will agree with you eventually. Slavery took at least a couple of hundred years. Women leadership hasn't been fully finished, and that was being argued in Wesley's day. Be faithful. And suggest to your gay and lesbian friends who feel called to ordained ministry that they become Episcopalians. (If God is currently calling a gay/lesbian to ordained ministry in the UM, it's a call to prophecy and persecution. I suppose this does happen, but understand that's what it is at the moment.)
What sucked most for me at least was that there wasn't ANY debate. Not on the 161g. It came up before dinner, people called the question, we voted. It was pointed out that we were out of order because we hadn't had at least 2 speeches for and 2 speeches against. So it went back to the floor. The bishop, instead of calling on the tons of red and green cards (signalling speeches), called on the yellow card (signalling a motion). And she moved to suspend the rules to call the question. We suspended the rules but never called the question again...so the vote still technically never happened...I'm currently struggling with whether or not to make a big deal out of it. Will it change anything? Almost certainly not. But I really don't think that votes this close and issues this major should be implemented when the vote was not technically within our rules. After dinner on another petition, someone moved to suspend the rules to call the question once again. We suspended the rules, but the bishop, rather than calling the vote on calling the question, told us we had to have speeches and made us debate. It was during this that I felt a stronger need to point out the discrepancies we'd be going through all day. I still don't know if I'm going to do it or not...but it's frustrating.
Unfortunately, this is not new... The "clearly hurtful" comments have been happening for decades and continue an atmosphere of injustice and oppression. As a reminder, the second vow we take as United Methodists (right after confessing our faith in Christ) is to resist evil, injustice and oppression in whatever forms they present themselves. That is what I feel that I must do...
My anger was/is not that "our side" didn't "win." My anger was/is that the differences cannot and have not EVER been acknowledged by my church (UMC). If you ever ask, "Why do we have to talk about these things whenever we get together?" It is because we have not yet begun the healing process. Everyone knows the first step toward healing is to admit that you have a problem. People who agree with my stance are not ever going away, and I believe we are in fact increasing in number.
The journey I have been on, and continue to be on, is one of asking myself the question: How can I increase in love for my neighbor, even neighbors that are victims of untruth who perpetuate an environment of hatred and ignorance? May God continue to help me on this journey.
I may be wrong, Gregg, but the closeness of the vote (that would have acknowledged that we are conflicted on the homosexual issue) is an indication that a fair number of otherwise conservatively-inclined people are now willing to accept such a "neutral" position. While the official policy remains unchanged, this may suggest that there are some possibilities for communication and mutual respect (imagine that?) on the local level.
Hello, everyone, welcome to my blog about my experiences at General Conference 2008. Everyone is able to comment on this blog; you may do so anonymously without an account (feel free to identify yourself in your comment). I would love any and all feedback!
8 comments:
Lord have mercy
Christ have mercy
Lord have mercy
My heart is broken right along with all of those who stood...
I'm too angry to write more now.
Amen
God forgive us?
Have mercy?
For affirming the word of God, the teachings of Scripture, the history of Christianity???
I just don't get it...up until now, many of you were writing that this G.C. has been "Spirit-led". Now, because the vote doesn't go your way, people suddenly aren't being led by the Spirit?!?
Perhaps your anger and sorrow should be turned into prayer for truth and sincere reflection. This "debate" has been taking place at G.C.'s for 40 years and the vote consistently affirms the teachings of Scripture.
What will it take for you to truly listen to what God is saying???
Dear Anonymous:
Who are you? Voices that hold the traditional Christian view on homosexuality are very welcome (e.g., see the comments a couple of days ago; and I doubt my stance is at all identical to Stephen and Gregg, I know it's not identical to Becca's). But please don't drop in to a list of comments by some clearly hurting people without at least identifying yourself.
Becca, Stephen, Gregg...
I'm sorry you're hurting. The vote is not surprising from this end. I didn't listen to any of the debate, so perhaps that's what has broken your heart.
Some of the 2008 vs 2004 wording is text cleanup, and I think it's helpful. But I also see some hardening of the lines:
1) The removal of anything regarding further study of sexuality.
2) The removal of general guidelines for sexual behavior (replaced by "monogamous, heterosexual marriage")
There is also some political conservatism sneaking in ("protection" instead of "protective services", and in the paragraph on sex education), which generally runs counter to the spirit of the rest of the Discipline.
I'm sad that the new version didn't pass, but it seemed unlikely. General Conference is, as a whole, a conservative body. (All large randomly selected bodies are, as a whole, conservative. People resist change, probably for good reason; many changes are bad.)
If you're right, the Church will agree with you eventually. Slavery took at least a couple of hundred years. Women leadership hasn't been fully finished, and that was being argued in Wesley's day. Be faithful. And suggest to your gay and lesbian friends who feel called to ordained ministry that they become Episcopalians. (If God is currently calling a gay/lesbian to ordained ministry in the UM, it's a call to prophecy and persecution. I suppose this does happen, but understand that's what it is at the moment.)
What sucked most for me at least was that there wasn't ANY debate. Not on the 161g. It came up before dinner, people called the question, we voted. It was pointed out that we were out of order because we hadn't had at least 2 speeches for and 2 speeches against. So it went back to the floor. The bishop, instead of calling on the tons of red and green cards (signalling speeches), called on the yellow card (signalling a motion). And she moved to suspend the rules to call the question. We suspended the rules but never called the question again...so the vote still technically never happened...I'm currently struggling with whether or not to make a big deal out of it. Will it change anything? Almost certainly not. But I really don't think that votes this close and issues this major should be implemented when the vote was not technically within our rules.
After dinner on another petition, someone moved to suspend the rules to call the question once again. We suspended the rules, but the bishop, rather than calling the vote on calling the question, told us we had to have speeches and made us debate. It was during this that I felt a stronger need to point out the discrepancies we'd be going through all day. I still don't know if I'm going to do it or not...but it's frustrating.
Unfortunately, this is not new... The "clearly hurtful" comments have been happening for decades and continue an atmosphere of injustice and oppression. As a reminder, the second vow we take as United Methodists (right after confessing our faith in Christ) is to resist evil, injustice and oppression in whatever forms they present themselves. That is what I feel that I must do...
My anger was/is not that "our side" didn't "win." My anger was/is that the differences cannot and have not EVER been acknowledged by my church (UMC). If you ever ask, "Why do we have to talk about these things whenever we get together?" It is because we have not yet begun the healing process. Everyone knows the first step toward healing is to admit that you have a problem. People who agree with my stance are not ever going away, and I believe we are in fact increasing in number.
The journey I have been on, and continue to be on, is one of asking myself the question: How can I increase in love for my neighbor, even neighbors that are victims of untruth who perpetuate an environment of hatred and ignorance? May God continue to help me on this journey.
I may be wrong, Gregg, but the closeness of the vote (that would have acknowledged that we are conflicted on the homosexual issue) is an indication that a fair number of otherwise conservatively-inclined people are now willing to accept such a "neutral" position. While the official policy remains unchanged, this may suggest that there are some possibilities for communication and mutual respect (imagine that?) on the local level.
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